I would like to make an article on 10 concrete ways in which one can personally help smash the State. So far I've only come up with 7:

1. Talk to your friends about Anarchy, send people to TOLFA, etc
2. For birthdays or Christmas, give books or movies that promote Anarchist ideas
3. Start or support local Meetups, help kickstart local projects through these Meetups
4. If you are a student, join Bureaucrash and support their campaigns
5. If you live in a big city, join black flagger groups
6. Tax resistance, and under-the-table work whenever possible
7. Non-cooperation with the State (police, licencing, etc)
ADDED: 8. Disentangling oneself from the system. Bartering, self-production, online loans, etc. Participating in black markets. Agorist counter-economics.

Any other suggestions?

---
Seditious malcontent
"But Who Will Build the Roads?": Market Anarchy Explained http://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.asp?bookid=38234

participate in black markets or counter economies.

» participate in black markets or counter economies.

I did include that in the "under-the-table" section. If there's more I should add in that regard, please tell me, because my knowledge of agorism is pretty much nil (I did read Konkin's manifesto, etc).

---
Seditious malcontent
"But Who Will Build the Roads?": Market Anarchy Explained http://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.asp?bookid=38234

I did a short post on this called practical revolutionary economics:

I also had a few suggestions in the 10 commandments of anarchy post on this board.

Which is meant to be a basic run down for people who know nothing about what anarchy is supposed to be (for statists). I think it would be a great idea for all of us to put our ideas together, and put it all in an essay. A guide to practical methods to reduce our inputs into the statist system. My concerns are: that for each few thousand of us that do this, people are imported (as cattle) to replace and increase demand on the statist system. In that sense we are fighting a loosing battle; which is why in my post above (economics of revolution part 1) we need mass critical number to make it work. Either that, or the fight club scenario.

---
Those who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither - BENJAMIN FRANKLIN

You're a collectivist Anarchist, so it's not really the approach I am talking about here.

But that definitely gives me the idea of adding a point as regards to barter, bypassing the system, etc... most importantly from my point of view, using market loans like prosper.com instead of using banks, which are of course all an integral part of the State.

---
Seditious malcontent
"But Who Will Build the Roads?": Market Anarchy Explained http://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.asp?bookid=38234

» You're a collectivist Anarchist, so it's not really the approach I am
» talking about here.

I feel like that's somehow a dirty word.... Collectivist anarchist! Can you give your definition of this? and what don't you like about that approach? I just want to understand what you meant here. thanks.

---
Those who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither - BENJAMIN FRANKLIN

A collectivist Anarchist is someone who approaches Anarchism with collectivist values (i.e. puts emphasis on equality and fairness instead of individual freedom and rights) and with collectivist priorities (i.e. want to take down capitalism more eagerly than they want to take down the State itself). Ideologies that graft statist ideas onto Anarchy, like anarcho-socialism, anarcho-syndicalism and anarcho-communism, tend to be of this category.

Basically, collectivism and individualism are just two very general ways of describing people's approaches to Anarchy. They help distinguish two very different modes of discourse, which do not mesh very well and as such I don't really try to mix the two, although both have much to learn from each other.

---
Seditious malcontent
"But Who Will Build the Roads?": Market Anarchy Explained http://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.asp?bookid=38234

» Basically, collectivism and individualism are just two very general ways
» of describing people's approaches to Anarchy. They help distinguish two
» very different modes of discourse, which do not mesh very well and as such
» I don't really try to mix the two, although both have much to learn from
» each other.

Well, I don't know about that...I remember watching ANARCHISM IN AMERICA and hearing Karl Hess compare Emma Goldman favourably to Ayn Rand. And Murray Bookchin as a special guest at a Libertarian function. There are points of agreement. There are also points of disagreement, but I personally would like to encourage more dialogue.

» A collectivist Anarchist is someone who approaches Anarchism with
» collectivist values (i.e. puts emphasis on equality and fairness instead of
» individual freedom and rights) and with collectivist priorities (i.e. want
» to take down capitalism more eagerly than they want to take down the State
» itself). Ideologies that graft statist ideas onto Anarchy, like
» anarcho-socialism, anarcho-syndicalism and anarcho-communism, tend to be of
» this category.

I do believe in fairness and equality, but also freedom of individuals. Check out my post on national anarchism where effectively I'm saying that even Nazis have a right to self-determination and freedom from coercion.

I do have a strong dislike (hatred of capitalism), but I have since been informed it's more corporatism that i'm referring to. I believe the only way to remove the state is through breaking the current economic system. Economics is what is holding the whole thing together.

As Royce's signature states: "Any government that robs Peter to pay Paul, will have the support of Paul".

I am very anti-statist, but my focus has been to bring down this system through economic means.

It's funny, because in comments on my blog i've been accused of being a "european National anarchist troll" - which is effectively a white nationalist. ROFLMAO! (I'm getting accused of all things from all sides!)

In truth - I like to think i'm an anarchist without adjectives as i've said in my post.

---
Those who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither - BENJAMIN FRANKLIN

» A collectivist Anarchist is someone who approaches Anarchism with
» collectivist values (i.e. puts emphasis on equality and fairness instead of
» individual freedom and rights) and with collectivist priorities (i.e. want
» to take down capitalism more eagerly than they want to take down the State
» itself). Ideologies that graft statist ideas onto Anarchy, like
» anarcho-socialism, anarcho-syndicalism and anarcho-communism, tend to be of
» this category.
»
» Basically, collectivism and individualism are just two very general ways
» of describing people's approaches to Anarchy. They help distinguish two
» very different modes of discourse, which do not mesh very well and as such
» I don't really try to mix the two, although both have much to learn from
» each other.

i've had a habit of spreading myself too thin. this is just another example, i guess.

» A collectivist Anarchist is someone who approaches Anarchism with
» collectivist values (i.e. puts emphasis on equality and fairness instead of
» individual freedom and rights) and with collectivist priorities (i.e. want
» to take down capitalism more eagerly than they want to take down the State
» itself). Ideologies that graft statist ideas onto Anarchy, like
» anarcho-socialism, anarcho-syndicalism and anarcho-communism, tend to be of
» this category.
»
» Basically, collectivism and individualism are just two very general ways
» of describing people's approaches to Anarchy. They help distinguish two
» very different modes of discourse, which do not mesh very well and as such
» I don't really try to mix the two, although both have much to learn from
» each other.

I don't understand these dichotomies.

Anarcho-Communism was, from its very inception, anti-statist (more properly any government) as well as anti-capitalist (or any economic system based on disparity of wealth and power).

We have always seen the two going hand in hand.

What is a collective if not an aggregate of individuals? How can one contribute to the collective if one is not a whole individual? Why should anyone be loyal to a collective if it does not allow the fullest development and expression of the individuality of the members?

D2

The point is not that you don't believe in the concepts from the other side. The point is that as a collectivist you emphasize concepts that are collectivist in nature. There can be inter-mingling, but the form of dialogue is very different on both sides, and it's very difficult to reconcile them.

» In truth - I like to think i'm an anarchist without adjectives as
» i've said in my post.

Sure, but I don't think there's any such thing. We'd LIKE it to exist, but everyone has a bias towards one side or the other, like how bisexuals all have a preference for one gender (some a slight preference, some a stronger preference).

---
Seditious malcontent
"But Who Will Build the Roads?": Market Anarchy Explained http://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.asp?bookid=38234

» What is a collective if not an aggregate of individuals? How can one
» contribute to the collective if one is not a whole individual? Why should
» anyone be loyal to a collective if it does not allow the fullest
» development and expression of the individuality of the members?

Well now you're using the individualist perspective to analyze a collectivist concept. Of course from our perspective the individual is the paramount unit.

---
Seditious malcontent
"But Who Will Build the Roads?": Market Anarchy Explained http://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.asp?bookid=38234

I try to have as little cross-boundaries dialogue as possible, and I don't really share the concepts at all. But I do think that both sides have a lot to learn from each other. I started on the extreme end of individualism on the spectrum, but as I learn more, I have shifted somewhat closer to the collectivist side.

---
Seditious malcontent
"But Who Will Build the Roads?": Market Anarchy Explained http://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.asp?bookid=38234

Sorry Francois,

I have inadvertantely changed the discussion to different forms of anarchism, instead of ways to smash the system. My bad.

Can't we all just get along?

"Oh, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet."
- Rudyard Kipling

The fact that we disagree on certain ideas and principles, which gives rise to the different factions only further supports the principle that national anarchism is one answer to such a dilemma.

One of the most influential doctrines in history is that all humans are divided into groups called nations. It is an ethical and philosophical doctrine in itself, and is the starting point for the ideology of nationalism. These nations - as described are anarchistic schools of thought, where individuals collectively organised based on their ideals and values. Seeing as there are always going to be conceptual differences and not everything can be compromised upon, national anarchism - the segregation of different anarchist factions is promising. That way, no individual needs to change their ideology.

I think it finds a good balance for all our differences.

---
Those who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither - BENJAMIN FRANKLIN

That's fine with me. We can either agree, or leave each other alone. As long as a hundred years from now we're not starting a world war between collectivists and individualists...

---
Seditious malcontent
"But Who Will Build the Roads?": Market Anarchy Explained http://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.asp?bookid=38234

» That's fine with me. We can either agree, or leave each other alone. As
» long as a hundred years from now we're not starting a world war between
» collectivists and individualists...

Ansocs and Ancaps should settle their differences with a good game of rock em sock em robots.

» » What is a collective if not an aggregate of individuals? How can one
» » contribute to the collective if one is not a whole individual? Why
» should
» » anyone be loyal to a collective if it does not allow the fullest
» » development and expression of the individuality of the members?
»
» Well now you're using the individualist perspective to analyze a
» collectivist concept. Of course from our perspective the individual is the
» paramount unit.

No, that's not what I'm saying at all.

I am saying this: "The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function." - F. Scott Fitzgerald

Either Anarchists will find that first-rate intelligence in themselves and in the collective when it comes to the relationship of the individual vis-a-vis society, or it won't fly.

D2

That's an unbelievably absurd thing to say. Why did you say it?

---
Seditious malcontent
"But Who Will Build the Roads?": Market Anarchy Explained http://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.asp?bookid=38234

By the way, I just read your piece about Market Anarchy by way of STR.com. Good job.

» By the way, I just read your piece about Market Anarchy by way of STR.com.
» Good job.

Uh, which one?

---
Seditious malcontent
"But Who Will Build the Roads?": Market Anarchy Explained http://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.asp?bookid=38234

» » By the way, I just read your piece about Market Anarchy by way of
» STR.com.
» » Good job.
»
» Uh, which one?

The one about "Is M.A. misplaced Idealism?" or something like that.

» By the way, I just read your piece about Market Anarchy by way of STR.com.
» Good job.

str.com?

That was on my blog, Check Your Premises:
http://francoistremblay.wordpress.com/

---
Seditious malcontent
"But Who Will Build the Roads?": Market Anarchy Explained http://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.asp?bookid=38234

» » A collectivist Anarchist is someone who approaches Anarchism with
» » collectivist values (i.e. puts emphasis on equality and fairness instead
» of
» » individual freedom and rights) and with collectivist priorities (i.e.
» want
» » to take down capitalism more eagerly than they want to take down the
» State
» » itself). Ideologies that graft statist ideas onto Anarchy, like
» » anarcho-socialism, anarcho-syndicalism and anarcho-communism, tend to be
» of
» » this category.
»
» I do believe in fairness and equality, but also freedom of individuals.
» Check out my post on
» national
» anarchism where effectively I'm saying that even Nazis have a right
» to self-determination and freedom from coercion.
»
» I do have a strong dislike (hatred of capitalism), but I have since been
» informed it's more corporatism that i'm referring to. I believe the only
» way to remove the state is through breaking the current economic system.
» Economics is what is holding the whole thing together.
»
» As Royce's signature states: "Any government that robs Peter to pay Paul,
» will have the support of Paul".
»
» I am very anti-statist, but my focus has been to bring down this system
» through economic means.
»
» It's funny, because in comments on my blog i've been accused of being a
» "european National anarchist troll" - which is effectively a white
» nationalist. ROFLMAO! (I'm getting accused of all things from all sides!)

National "anarchim" is a form of neonazis, left populism, located to the left in the populist sector of the fascist quadrant on the economcial-political map, see http://www.anarchy.no/a_e_p_m.html . Arguments against national "anarchism", stating its fascist tendency, here on this forum is found at http://www.anarchism.net/forum/forum_entry.php?id=17603 , http://www.anarchism.net/forum/forum_entry.php?id=17628 , http://www.anarchism.net/forum/forum_entry.php?id=17629 , http://www.anarchism.net/forum/forum_entry.php?id=17640 , http://www.anarchism.net/forum/forum_entry.php?id=17678 ,
http://www.anarchism.net/forum/forum_entry.php?id=17681 .

This forum has been accused of supporting racist and nationalist (nazi) ideas, and this gives the Anarchism. net a bad name. I think you should stop supporting the national "anarchists, or leave this forum.

» I would like to make an article on 10 concrete ways in which one can
» personally help smash the State. So far I've only come up with 7:
»
» 1. Talk to your friends about Anarchy, send people to TOLFA, etc
» 2. For birthdays or Christmas, give books or movies that promote Anarchist
» ideas
» 3. Start or support local Meetups, help kickstart local projects through
» these Meetups
» 4. If you are a student, join Bureaucrash and support their campaigns
» 5. If you live in a big city, join black flagger groups
» 6. Tax resistance, and under-the-table work whenever possible
» 7. Non-cooperation with the State (police, licencing, etc)
» ADDED: 8. Disentangling oneself from the system. Bartering,
» self-production, online loans, etc. Participating in black markets. Agorist
» counter-economics.
»
» Any other suggestions?

1)What is TOLFA? Am I supposed to know what it is?
2)If I was your non-anarchist friend, I'd begin to dislike you for such propaganda-presents. Especially if I was one of those statist commie-collectivist-anarchists, which would be quite possible being the indisputable majority of the worldwide anarchist movement.
4)Beurowhat? Same as (1)
5)Black flaggers? Are those socialist anarchist groups? Same as (1)
7)Impossible. Avoiding cooperation with the state when possible sounds more down-to-earth.

Question, why smash the state?
I just want to live seperately from the state.
I dont want to deprive others from living in a state.

---
Free thinkers are dangerous.

» I would like to make an article on 10 concrete ways in which one can
» personally help smash the State. So far I've only come up with 7:
»
» 1. Talk to your friends about Anarchy, send people to TOLFA, etc
» 2. For birthdays or Christmas, give books or movies that promote Anarchist
» ideas
» 3. Start or support local Meetups, help kickstart local projects through
» these Meetups
» 4. If you are a student, join Bureaucrash and support their campaigns
» 5. If you live in a big city, join black flagger groups
» 6. Tax resistance, and under-the-table work whenever possible
» 7. Non-cooperation with the State (police, licencing, etc)
» ADDED: 8. Disentangling oneself from the system. Bartering,
» self-production, online loans, etc. Participating in black markets. Agorist
» counter-economics.
»
» Any other suggestions?

The points 1-5 seem ok to me, although I don't know what TOLFA and Bureaucrash are. I guess it is something libertarian.

I am a bit sceptical to agorism, because it will have significant authoritarian coercive market failures, as all "free" markets.

Bartering in legal exchange circles are relatively big in Norway, but I think illegal trading, say in drugs etc, i.e. the black market, is mostly authoritarian. Tax resistance may bring you in serious problems with the system, and perhaps you end up in jail, thus I will not recommend it.

One important point you have forgotten is anarchist media actions:

"In an anarchy of low degree, as Norway is at present, with ca 54% degree of anarchy, and ca 46% authoritarian degree, see Dagens Næringsliv (The Industrial life of today, the main economical newspaper of Norway) no 2/3 june 2007 and Finansavisen (The Financial newspaper) Wednesday 17. October 2007, the politics are to a large degree formed via the discussion in the public space. NACO, via the AIIS, and most of the media in general, have an important role to play in this matter, attacking authoritarian tendencies and supporting the libertarian. NACO is a libertarian voice in forming the day to day practical politics in the Anarchy of Norway, via the public space, and is not so occupied with the anarchist ideal, although it is never forgotten.

Anarchists and other people who have cases to put forward vis-à-vis the Storting or the State Council (STACO) etc., may write a petition in an e-mail to NACO. If NACO supports it, they will frame a resolution and/or take other direct actions to promote the case."

See http://www.anarchy.no/naco.html

NACO is the The Norwegian Anarchist Council, a group elected by AFIN, the Anarchist Federation of Norway, to take care of day to day politics in the Anarchy of Norway. The NACO works in close connection with AFIN, in a horizontal way.

Most of anarchists on this forum are as far as I know, not organized in anarchist federations, and as pure individuals, there is little to do to increase the libertarian degree and reduce the authoritarian degree, in the country you live in. To achieve a higher libertarian degree collective anarchist action is a must. Thus I will say: Organize!!!

» » I would like to make an article on 10 concrete ways in which one can
» » personally help smash the State. So far I've only come up with 7:
» »
» » 1. Talk to your friends about Anarchy, send people to TOLFA, etc
» » 2. For birthdays or Christmas, give books or movies that promote
» Anarchist
» » ideas
» » 3. Start or support local Meetups, help kickstart local projects
» through
» » these Meetups
» » 4. If you are a student, join Bureaucrash and support their campaigns
» » 5. If you live in a big city, join black flagger groups
» » 6. Tax resistance, and under-the-table work whenever possible
» » 7. Non-cooperation with the State (police, licencing, etc)
» » ADDED: 8. Disentangling oneself from the system. Bartering,
» » self-production, online loans, etc. Participating in black markets.
» Agorist
» » counter-economics.
» »
» » Any other suggestions?
»
The points 1-5 seem ok to me, although I don't know what TOLFA and bureaucrash are. I guess it is something libertarian.

I am a bit sceptical to agorism, because it will have significant authoritarian coercive market failures, as all "free" markets.

Bartering in legal exchange circles are relatively big in Norway, but I think illegal trading, say in drugs etc, i.e. the black market, is mostly authoritarian. Tax resistance may bring you in serious problems with the system, and perhaps you end up in jail, thus I will not recommend it.

One important point you have forgotten is anarchist media actions:

"In an anarchy of low degree, as Norway is at present, with ca 54% degree
of anarchy, and ca 46% authoritarian degree, see Dagens Næringsliv (The Industrial life of today, the main economical newspaper of Norway) no 2/3 june 2007 and Finansavisen (The Financial newspaper) Wednesday 17. October 2007, the politics are to a large degree formed via the discussion in the public space. NACO, via the AIIS, and most of the media in general, have an important role to play in this matter, attacking authoritarian tendencies and supporting the libertarian. NACO is a libertarian voice in forming the day to day practical politics in the Anarchy of Norway, via the public space, and is not so occupied with the anarchist ideal, although it is never forgotten.

Anarchists and other people who have cases to put forward vis-à-vis the Storting or the State Council (STACO) etc., may write a petition in an e-mail to NACO. If NACO supports it, they will frame a resolution and/or take other direct actions to promote the case."

See http://www.anarchy.no/naco.html

NACO is the The Norwegian Anarchist Council, a group elected by AFIN, the Anarchist Federation of Norway, to take care of day to day politics in the Anarchy of Norway. The NACO works in close connection with AFIN, in a orizontal way.

Most of anarchists on this forum are as far as I know, not organized in anarchist federations, and as pure individuals, there is little to do to increase the libertarian degree and reduce the authoritarian degree, in the country you live in. To achieve a higher libertarian degree collective anarchist action is a must. Thus I will say: Organize!!! Say, join the Anarchist International, see http://www.anarchy.no/ijaupdate.html to get a free subscription to the IJA/AI newsletters.

TOLFA is a project run by my friend Jim Davies that aims to educate the American people about anarchism. The idea is that if each individual that signs up and takes on a "student" to convince him/her using the TOLFA library/curriculum. If every individual convinces one every year, America would be anarchist in just a decade or two.

www.tolfa.us

Per Bylund

» That was on my blog, Check Your Premises:
» http://francoistremblay.wordpress.com/

Yeah, I found it from a link on STR.

Ryanpanda: STR = strike-the-root.com

» TOLFA is a project run by my friend Jim Davies that aims to educate the
» American people about anarchism. The idea is that if each individual that
» signs up and takes on a "student" to convince him/her using the TOLFA
» library/curriculum. If every individual convinces one every year, America
» would be anarchist in just a decade or two.
»
» www.tolfa.us
»
»
» Per Bylund

So the thread should be renamed:

Ways to personally help smash the State - USA only

---
Free thinkers are dangerous.

That's great, but I'm looking for more suggestions. Do you have any?

---
Seditious malcontent
"But Who Will Build the Roads?": Market Anarchy Explained http://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.asp?bookid=38234

» So the thread should be renamed:
»
» Ways to personally help smash the State - USA only

If you have a foreign equivalent, I'll add it! Geeze!

---
Seditious malcontent
"But Who Will Build the Roads?": Market Anarchy Explained http://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.asp?bookid=38234

» So the thread should be renamed:
» Ways to personally help smash the State - USA only

What are you doing to smash the state in Burkina Faso? Individuals will of course work on smashing the state in any way they can, which in most (if not all) cases means to work locally to stop "their own" government and perhaps also stop world government.

Jim's project is tailor-made for the US, but it is a first attempt to apply a somewhat LeFevrean strategy on the real world and actually do something. It can be easily copied, and I'm sure Jim would help in any way he can to spread this project to other parts of the world (but I am also sure he won't be able to run a global project).

Personally I believe the US is probably one of the best places to start getting rid of government if we adopt a global view of the problem. USA is the only super-power and empire; it is also the only state that is aggressively taking on a "world leadership" role. If the US government is abolished, then what would the rest of the world do? Probably follow this great example. (Imagine if another country, say Norway, would do the same - the impact on the world would be infinitesimal at best.)

Jim is, by the way, British but living in the US.

Per Bylund

» Personally I believe the US is probably one of the best places to start
» getting rid of government if we adopt a global view of the problem. USA is
» the only super-power and empire; it is also the only state that is
» aggressively taking on a "world leadership" role. If the US government is
» abolished, then what would the rest of the world do? Probably follow this
» great example. (Imagine if another country, say Norway, would do the same -
» the impact on the world would be infinitesimal at best.)

this is the exact reason why i haven't moved away from the states, despite the fact that i gravely wish to. i think the best expenditure of my energy and resources is here, where i was born and raised. the states might irritate me or even piss me off sometimes, but i feel that i need to be here making a difference.

if people here realized how great it would be without oppression and organized crime (government) then they would be loathe to allow any other country rise to the newly opened position of world leader even if another country could rally enough power to do so.

+++++++++++
Ways to personally help smash the State - USA only
+++++++++++

Become power independent in every way possible. The most effective method of 'smashing' the state is to stop feeding it.

» +++++++++++
» Ways to personally help smash the State - USA only
» +++++++++++
»
» Become power independent in every way possible. The most effective method
» of 'smashing' the state is to stop feeding it.

What does that mean concretely? And stop saying "USA only"- I want this to apply as broadly as possible.

---
Seditious malcontent
"But Who Will Build the Roads?": Market Anarchy Explained http://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.asp?bookid=38234

» Become power independent in every way possible. The most effective method
» of 'smashing' the state is to stop feeding it.

dumpster diving, buying things in black markets or counter economies, and taking under the table jobs is what i do.

francois seems to think buying things in counter economies is the same example as working under the table jobs, but it is possible to buy things with money you did not work for.

» francois seems to think buying things in counter economies is the same
» example as working under the table jobs, but it is possible to buy things
» with money you did not work for.

What exactly is that supposed to mean? Counterfeiting?

---
Seditious malcontent
"But Who Will Build the Roads?": Market Anarchy Explained http://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.asp?bookid=38234

» » francois seems to think buying things in counter economies is the same
» » example as working under the table jobs, but it is possible to buy
» things
» » with money you did not work for.
»
» What exactly is that supposed to mean? Counterfeiting?

stealing the money from corporations (something i do as often as i can) and pan handling are two examples. yes, counterfeiting is another example.

» stealing the money from corporations (something i do as often as i can)
» and pan handling are two examples. yes, counterfeiting is another example.

Can you be more concrete here? Are are you advocating printing fake money and robbing big stores?

I'm not saying this is immoral per se, I just want to clarify your rather vague language.

---
Seditious malcontent
"But Who Will Build the Roads?": Market Anarchy Explained http://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.asp?bookid=38234

» Can you be more concrete here? Are are you advocating printing fake money
» and robbing big stores?

pan handling is not vague, it is a very concrete idea as is counterfeiting money. as for stealing from corporations, you can use many methods. i was referring to most of them, which is why i was purposefully vague. one example of corporate theft is taking merchandise and returning it for money. if the vagueness you refer to is the idea of a corporation itself, walmart is the best example you can find. i'm not necessarily advocating these methods (i don't tell people what to believe or what to do), i'm stating that they do exist.

No, what I mean by concreteness is, what exactly is it that you do?

---
Seditious malcontent
"But Who Will Build the Roads?": Market Anarchy Explained http://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.asp?bookid=38234

» No, what I mean by concreteness is, what exactly is it that you do?

heh, that's probably not something i should post in a forum.

» » No, what I mean by concreteness is, what exactly is it that you do?
»
» heh, that's probably not something i should post in a forum.

If you're not willing to discuss it, then it's not a very reproducible strategy now is it.

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Seditious malcontent
"But Who Will Build the Roads?": Market Anarchy Explained http://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.asp?bookid=38234

» If you're not willing to discuss it, then it's not a very reproducible
» strategy now is it.

i already gave you one example of what one could do. use your imagination.

also, originally i was only stating that buying from counter economies and working under the table could be separate examples in your list in opposition to your theory that one example fit inside the other. i wanted buying to be included, not all this other bullshit.

++++++++
If you're not willing to discuss it, then it's not a very reproducible strategy now is it.
++++++++

Stealing from someone is what The State does (and this whole business of falsifying what PEOPLE do is THE PROBLEM).

If a person can count (account) for every penny (any unit of measure that measures PURCHASING POWER accurately) that is earned by the person and then that earning (purchasing power) is transferred to THE STATE, then, a person has a clear, precise, accurate, and meaningful measure of FEEDING THE STATE.

Stop that flow of POWER.

Keep more POWER and allow less POWER to transfer to THE STATE.

I can best (in my opinion this is best) describe my perspective with a comparison of two types of ‘collective’ funding.

A. Insurance
B. Tax

What is required to grasp the difference between A and B is a word that describes that difference as such:

A. Voluntary Insurance
B. Involuntary Tax

A terrible consequence of the POWER of falsehood is the confusion between A and B where both suffer discredit because one is false. Call that; Collective Punishment.

Have I lost you?

If you earn Purchasing Power with your employment method and you then invest a portion of your Purchasing Power toward a GROUP fund, then, you create something that is bigger, better, and more powerful compared to doing all the work yourself.

See this?

See Insurance as an example.

You, alone, cannot afford to learn how to perform an emergency surgery procedure, for example, and at the same time you can’t learn how to build your house, and at the same time you can’t learn how to build a car, a watch, a computer, a home heating unit, manufacture cloths, process food, etc. You must depend upon other people as other people cooperate toward a MUTUAL fund of effort arriving at MUTUAL prosperity.

This is called Division of Labor, Economies of Scale, and Specialization. It is a fact of human life and many DESPOTS discredit it or TAKE credit for it.

Again:

A. Insurance
B. Tax

Again:

A. Voluntary Insurance
B. Involuntary TAX

One is necessary for human prosperity (you can call it Division of Labor, Economies of Scale, Trade, Specialization, etc. OR you can call it Voluntary Insurance) and the other (you can call it THE STATE, DESPOTISM, LEGAL CRIME, etc. OR you can call it Involuntary TAX) is destructive to human prosperity (as a whole while it is certainly not destructive to those who profit from THE STATE; however – that is relative to those who do not profit from THE STATE = involuntary TAX).

One promotes prosperity while the other only promotes a few people while expending many people and sometimes quite literally expending many people (take Iraq for example).

So…the best way to personally KILL OFF THE STATE is to stop feeding it WHILE you promote something more powerful.

In other words you can’t just end THE STATE; you must create, promote, invest in, and produce economic prosperity, power, purchasing power, and MUTUAL association.

Anarchism must become more powerful than THE STATE. This is factual.

Any mutual association whereby any individual is free to participate or not participate is ANARCHISTIC by definition; no rulers who demand participation where failure to participate incorporates a punishment.

Another way of looking at this is another set of two choices:

A. Equitable Competition
B. Monopoly Enforcement

Equitable Competition is any case where production of anything is open to anyone without any enforced exclusion of any competitor based upon prejudice; in other words – anyone can join in the competition regardless of race, color, creed, religion, sex, etc.

Monopoly Enforcement is any case where someone is forced out of competition due to prejudice. Certainly a person who frauds (false advertisement) and produces a destructive product (injures) will be subjected to COSTS associated with injuring by fraud and violence; so please don’t get too caught up in the ‘free trade’ rhetoric.

Add the first A and B choices with the second A and B choices to arrive at:

A. Voluntary Insurance Equitable Competition
B. Involuntary Taxation Monopoly Enforcement

Choice A is very powerful for everyone. Choice B is very powerful for people who can Extract Involuntary Taxation through Monopoly Enforcement at the expense of everyone who is less powerful.

Clearly the only way to avoid being a victim to B (besides choosing B) is to empower A.

There really is nowhere to run and nowhere to hide.

Finding a way to empower anarchism isn’t that tough. Finding a way to do so without being crushed by The State is merely a POWER struggle and this must be understood. As soon as this is understood by enough people (anarchists) The State is rendered power-less.

i agree with you almost completely. i do, however, feel it is necessary to take some of the power they stole and return it to where it belongs. i'm not stating this is for everyone, which is why i didn't want to delve into it with francois. keeping power from entering the state originally is often the better method and the method most can readily embrace.

» i agree with you almost completely. i do, however, feel it is necessary to
» take some of the power they stole and return it to where it belongs. i'm
» not stating this is for everyone, which is why i didn't want to delve into
» it with francois. keeping power from entering the state originally is often
» the better method and the method most can readily embrace.

I used to think committing crimes against the state was entirely pointless, but now I realize for a lot of people thats how they vent their frusteration. Not exactly a productive way, necessarily, but who am I to judge.

I read an article once which encouraged people to "stop traffic": basically, to commit random acts against state property, like survelliance cameras, government buildings, etc. to piss the government off.

» I read an article once which encouraged people to "stop traffic":
» basically, to commit random acts against state property, like survelliance
» cameras, government buildings, etc. to piss the government off.

what publication was the article published in?

» » I read an article once which encouraged people to "stop traffic":
» » basically, to commit random acts against state property, like
» survelliance
» » cameras, government buildings, etc. to piss the government off.
»
» what publication was the article published in?

I can't remember. I've been trying to find it, I think it was posted on strike the root a while ago.

Its basic point was that since major upheavel was not in the forseeable future, we should just do everything in our power to fuck with, torment, and screw with the state and its mechanisms at every possible opportunity. They had some really good examples of what you could do, I wish I remembered where the article was....

» i already gave you one example of what one could do. use your
» imagination.

I'm not asking you about my imagination, I'm asking about what's tried and true. I want to get more ideas. If I just wanted to use my imagination, I wouldn't have posted now would I?

» also, originally i was only stating that buying from counter economies and
» working under the table could be separate examples in your list in
» opposition to your theory that one example fit inside the other. i wanted
» buying to be included, not all this other bullshit.

Why shouldn't they be included on the same point? I don't really see the difference.

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Seditious malcontent
"But Who Will Build the Roads?": Market Anarchy Explained http://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.asp?bookid=38234

I really appreciate the discussion that has blossomed on this topic, but no one seems to be posting further suggestions. Does anyone have any points I could add to my list?

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Seditious malcontent
"But Who Will Build the Roads?": Market Anarchy Explained http://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.asp?bookid=38234

» I really appreciate the discussion that has blossomed on this topic, but no
» one seems to be posting further suggestions. Does anyone have any points I
» could add to my list?

Why not help introduce people to Anarchism? Or at least discuss issues from an Anarchist perspective. At least this way there's more of a chance our perspective is going to get out there.

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"In modern states, the citizen is politically impotent. A citizen, it is true, may complain, make suggestions, or cause disruptions, but in the ancient world these were privileges that belonged to any slave." - Mark Mirabello

That's point number 1.

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Seditious malcontent
"But Who Will Build the Roads?": Market Anarchy Explained http://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.asp?bookid=38234

» That's point number 1.

My mistake. I'll think it over and if I come up with something I'll post it here.

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"In modern states, the citizen is politically impotent. A citizen, it is true, may complain, make suggestions, or cause disruptions, but in the ancient world these were privileges that belonged to any slave." - Mark Mirabello

+++++++++
I really appreciate the discussion that has blossomed on this topic, but no
one seems to be posting further suggestions. Does anyone have any points I
could add to my list?
+++++++++

Become more power independent. If you depend upon the power of the state (organized crime) for money, then, you are taxed. That is one of the most insidious connections between investors who profit from the state and their victims.

I think the inevitable conclusion always returns to a need for more power controlled by the individual and this naturally arrives at the obvious need to associate with like minded individuals.

There are two then:

Become independent of State currency and that process inevitably requires an association of like minded individuals having coincidental interests in volunteering to combine power equitably.

How about a practical example?

How many people owe mortgage principle and interest denominated in state currency?

How quickly could a volunteer association of mutually interested people eliminate their ‘debt’ to The State by creating a mutual fund to pay off their State denominated mortgages and avoid the high costs of interest?

That is one connection to the state (organized crime) where people empower The State unknowingly or reluctantly (because there isn’t a method of eliminating that connection).

How about step by step?

The ‘collective’ group can buy or create an internal currency. For the Gold Bugs we can imagine using current State dollars (Euros or whatever) to buy an E-Gold account (or buy Gold coins or buy Gold and make coins). The E-Gold account is easier to work but may not be a secure as having the actual gold on hand (then again it may be less secure having the gold on hand). Anyway we need to do some numbers.

Suppose 100 people (or 1 million) start the venture. Each of the 100 people manages to scrape together 1000 dollars plus 100 dollars a month (perhaps they buy Solar Panels on their existing houses and send the savings to the mutual mortgage interest removal association).

The idea is to work the numbers. Each person will gain an equitable share in the ‘profits’ as the investment begins to eliminate mortgage interest. The fund begins at 100,000 dollars plus 1000 dollars per month to hire new home constructions based upon a more practical housing design (get houses built out of the jurisdiction of ‘code enforcement’ or get the ‘legal’ licenses). Houses are constructed using the latest energy savings technology and they will be Solar/Wind/Hydrogen powered and each house ends up with two electric cars.

When the first person (first come first serve or some other method of equitable arrangement) moves into the new home his ‘savings’ lowers everyone else’s monthly payment OR accelerates the next house built.

See this?

Example:

Each person in the venture has a monthly cost going out to mortgage, mortgage interest, an electric bill, a natural gas bill, and a transportation fuel cost.

Add those up.

1000 for the monthly mortgage interest (not much principle if the loan is new).

100 for the electric bill

Add in the natural gas and an ‘average’ gasoline bill and (just to round things off) suppose the total comes to 2,000 per month ‘average’ for each person having a stake in the venture (each person gains a percentage based upon his stake).

The first person to take possession (control) of the new home does not have a mortgage/principle/electric/natural gas/gasoline Cost going OUTSIDE the venture.

That person can either pay down his own costs as a percentage of the whole venture (building the second house) or keep paying the ‘costs’ to the venture and increase the speed (because less money is going OUTSIDE and more money is INVESTED inside) of building the next house or the next two houses.

The second person to be FREE can do the same thing – pay down the costs of participation or accelerate the rate of independence as more houses are built (more electric cars are purchased and more Solar Panel/Wind generator/hydrogen producers are installed.

Now suppose 50 houses are built and 50 people are still ‘hooked’ into The System of ‘organized crime’ or, if you prefer, 50 people remain investing in The State while 50 have cut that connection.

Now that 2,000 per month ‘cost’ by 50 to get a total of the INTERNAL currency flow that no longer goes OUTSIDE the venture or, if you prefer, the mortgage interest payoff mutual association.

I’ll do the math for you.

100,000 per month is the mathematical answer to the question asking how much ‘profit’ the equitable association makes when 50 members are power independent and the other 50 are not yet power independent.

What was the cost of starting up the venture?

What is the cost of not starting up the venture?

That is easy; add your rent, or mortgage, to your electric and natural gas bill and then add the cost of gasoline (including all the costs of acquiring and utilizing gasoline made from oil).

The most important thing people can do is to live as autonomously as possible. As Paul Goodman said, we should all strive to live our lives as if the state doesn't exist. While this is obviously impossible, it is at least something we should try to do as much as possible.

That sounds great (although I couldn't really follow), but I'm looking for things that people can do right now. Perhaps that could be part of the group projects part.

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Seditious malcontent
"But Who Will Build the Roads?": Market Anarchy Explained http://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.asp?bookid=38234

++++++++++
That sounds great (although I couldn't really follow), but I'm looking for
things that people can do right now. Perhaps that could be part of the
group projects part.
++++++++++

So you want a pacifier?

What do you fail to follow?

The most basic connection between victims and organized crime is THE CONNECTION which is THE CURRENCY.

Stop using it. Use something better. Is this difficult to understand? If so, then, you have found the problem and the direction to proceed.

If you want a pacifier, then, SEE THE STATE (they give them out for free).

I understand the basic principle, all I'm saying is that your advice can't be followed right now (you need a big group, and so on), and I'm looking for things that people can do right now.

And there's no need to be fucking offensive about it and treat me like a child. What the fuck is wrong with you?

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Seditious malcontent
"But Who Will Build the Roads?": Market Anarchy Explained http://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.asp?bookid=38234

++++++++++
What the fuck is wrong with you?
++++++++++

How is asking a question twisted into 'being offensive'? If you ask me if I want a pacifier I will answer no thanks. I'd rather have my question answered. You appear, and you can correct any error on my part (or accuse me of 'being offensive' again - whatever you wish), you appear to want something specific yet you appear not to want something specific. You appear to want something comforting and secure so long as you don't have to actually do anything. That is how your responses appear to me - honestly.

You can do anything you want right now and one of the things you can do right now is figure out how to disconnect the flow of earnings (purchasing power) from you to The State. A suggestion that nulifies my suggestion because 'it' requires too many people or too much organization or too much effort or isn't possible or whatever appears to dodge the answer given.

I offered an answer to your question and YOU can do something unique to your situation without involving anyone else except the very next person who receives your earnings (purchasing power) had you not avoided transferring it.

See?

The answer doesn’t necessarily make anyone feel better and the criminals who operate the organized crime ring (The State) count on that fact - all the way to the bank.

You can repeat how you don't want a pacifier and you can repeat how answers to your question offend you and you can repeat sending earnings (purchasing power) to criminals, or, you can do something else.

Let me know, if you wish, if you figure out how to accomplish step one.

Step 1

Don't feed The State

Step 2 is produce more power at home.

The cart may be in front of the horse if you do not have the power to realize the need to do step one?

That question mark is there for a reason and the reason isn't to offend you.

Maybe this is just a difference in style. I don't like to mince words and I prefer to get to the point. You seem to prefer to elaborate considerably, to be more precise. And that's fine, but it's just hard for me to read personally. My philosophy is- if you have something to say, then get to the point.

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Seditious malcontent
"But Who Will Build the Roads?": Market Anarchy Explained http://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.asp?bookid=38234

» Maybe this is just a difference in style. I don't like to mince words and I
» prefer to get to the point. You seem to prefer to elaborate considerably,
» to be more precise. And that's fine, but it's just hard for me to read
» personally. My philosophy is- if you have something to say, then get to the
» point.

After all, brevity is the soul of wit.

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"In modern states, the citizen is politically impotent. A citizen, it is true, may complain, make suggestions, or cause disruptions, but in the ancient world these were privileges that belonged to any slave." - Mark Mirabello

» After all, brevity is the soul of wit.

But, if I may be the "Devil's Advocate," the devil is in the details. ;)

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Seditious malcontent
"But Who Will Build the Roads?": Market Anarchy Explained http://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.asp?bookid=38234

» TOLFA is a project run by my friend Jim Davies that aims to educate the
» American people about anarchism.

I had a good chuckle reading that site. It doesn't seem to amount to anything more than a series of "I'm right, you're wrong" arguments.

+++++++
Maybe this is just a difference in style. I don't like to mince words and I
prefer to get to the point. You seem to prefer to elaborate considerably,
to be more precise. And that's fine, but it's just hard for me to read
personally. My philosophy is- if you have something to say, then get to the
point.
+++++++

Anyone,

Now, strangely enough, the ‘point’ has moved to editorial comments and narration?

The new direction looks like another example of projection and ‘shoot the messenger’. If you fail to understand the suggestions (stop feeding the state and make power at home) as being on topic, simple, doable, reasonable, practical examples, then, ignore them eh?

What gives on the continued focus upon one of the forum members and that individuals, ahhhh, ‘character’?

What is he being accused of now?

Mincing words

Is that just my imagination or was it an attack by innuendo?

Again –

Stop feeding the state by severing the connection to the state which is monetary currency. I can imagine that a huge part of the problem, for some, with this idea is the certain knowledge that the STATE is disguised behind the banner of a Limited Liability Corporation or visa versa. Did I mince those words?

The connection between the Powerful ones injuring the innocent people and the innocent people is currency and that currency includes these words right here on this forum.

When people pretend to not know that the connection exists, then, they resort to attacking people – on purpose.

Why ask a question if the intent is to discredit the people offering an answer?

Answer (of many possible answers):

The idea, in the first place, was to discredit people. It is called: phishing and trolling and otherwise falsifying what would otherwise be a mutually beneficial (equitable) transfer of information (absent the obvious intent to injure – on purpose).

So what is the ‘official’ score card according to the judge in this case?

Where is that list of things to do according to anyone having the ‘better’ list at this time?

Mine remains to be:

Stop feeding the criminals (State or Limited Liability Corporation)

Produce the POWER to accomplish #1

The third option relies upon something called equity. You may not be familiar with the term. You may be intimately familiar with the term and merely wish to ignore or discredit IT.

Good luck and if your editorial comments continue I’m going to ask why you do it and even what is your pay off?

Pro-bono editing work?

Note: I’m not buying.

1. Talk to your friends about Anarchy, send people to TOLFA, etc
2. For birthdays or Christmas, give books or movies that promote Anarchist ideas
3. Start or support local Meetups, help kickstart local projects through these Meetups
4. If you are a student, join Bureaucrash and support their campaigns
5. If you live in a big city, join black flagger groups
6. Tax resistance, and under-the-table work whenever possible
7. Non-cooperation with the State (police, licencing, etc)
ADDED: 8. Disentangling oneself from the system. Bartering, self-production, online loans, etc. Participating in black markets. Agorist counter-economics.

I was just reading over these 8 statements.

I've re-written them and added in another two.

1. Discuss Anarchism with anyone who shows interest
2. Distribute Anarchism material, be it essays, books, movies etc (doesn't necessarily have to be at Christmas)
3. Locate near-by Anarchists
4. Student Activism
5. Locate any Anarchist groups that operate within cities and offer assistence
6. Tax Resistance
8. Counter Economics - (this is the strongest of the lot in my opinion, it is really a very elegant theory)
9. Write (write opinion pieces for papers, in forums, blogs, get more information out there)
10. Become an informant, particularly if you work in sensitive areas of government. Information is priceless in this day and age.

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"In modern states, the citizen is politically impotent. A citizen, it is true, may complain, make suggestions, or cause disruptions, but in the ancient world these were privileges that belonged to any slave." - Mark Mirabello